@blueemu @AlliFlowers Palestine wasn't ever a religious state, right?

@tadbithuman @AlliFlowers I don't think it could properly be considered a state at all. Ottoman Empire -> Mandatory Palestine -> Israel declared -> occupation

@blueemu @AlliFlowers what about before the Ottoman Empire?

@tadbithuman @AlliFlowers Ruled by various Islamic caliphates after the Byzantine Empire. No independent state of Palestine has ever existed.

@blueemu @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers as part of the British Empire they were no less independent than Australia, New Zealand or Canada. They had British passports endorsed as Palestinian.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/15/55/c7/1555c7e9180b6c79a539963d08a2e58d.jpg

@peterbrown @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers Which would be...no independence. Hence the word "Empire."

Was India a sovereign nation before 1947? Please. A passport isn't the same as self government.

@blueemu @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers I think there are only three countries on the planet, which have not compromised their sovereignty in some way, and therefore could be said to be fully independent. They are North Korea, south Sudan and Afghanistan. Every other country has compromised its sovereignty through treaties, agreements, and unions. 
Independence is not a cut and dried concept; it is relative.

@peterbrown @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers We're not talking about "uncompromised sovereignty" we're talking about the base requirements for being a "state" in the modern sense. To imply that Arabs in Mandatory Palestine had anything resembling self governance is not a serious argument at all.

@blueemu @peterbrown @AlliFlowers modern day concept of nation states, and the idea of sovereignty are not from the same time period.

Sovereign states with moving boundaries have existed much longer than nation states.

Was India a sovereign nation before 1947? No, because India as a nation state unit didn't exist before then. Were there historical sovereign states that overlapped the same geography? Yes, many.

@tadbithuman @peterbrown @AlliFlowers The original question was why is Israel called a Jewish state but Palestine is not called an Islamic state. My point is that Palestine is not a state in the sense of the word implied by that question.

Israel? Jewish state
Iran? Islamic state
Pakistan? Islamic state
Palestine? Not a state at all, never has been.

@blueemu @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers okay so it can be obliterated at will because it doesn’t exist.

@peterbrown @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers what in the world are you talking about? Who is making that argument? You? Because it's not me.

@blueemu @peterbrown @AlliFlowers it is recognized and had a seat at the U.N. under the name "State of Palestine" which is like a state of purgatory due to the international moral vacuum.

@tadbithuman @peterbrown @AlliFlowers Are you arguing that Palestine and Israel are both examples of a modern nation state? Because that's ludicrous. Hamas isn't a government.

I'm not saying the concept of a Palestinian state is wrong or bad, just the opposite.

I honestly don't know if this is miscommunication or disagreement. If it's the latter, I don't know what you're arguing.

@blueemu @peterbrown @AlliFlowers the question is whether Palestine should be referred to as a Muslim state. The answer is no, it is a state that isn't defined as such.

@tadbithuman And it does not need to be, because as this thread has shown, there are many Muslim states. There is only one Jewish state (sorry, New York), and Hamas wants it destroyed so that not even Palistianans (fellow Muslims) can live there. @blueemu @peterbrown

@AlliFlowers @blueemu @peterbrown

Dr Flowers, Hamas type ideology should be crushed. Settler ideology should be crushed. Harm to innocent people must be less than the benefits accrued to others *in this pursuit*.

You asked the question, why is Palestine not called a Muslim state while Israel is noted as the Jewish state. The answer is that Israel self identifies as such.

In my opinion without any authority, state and religion should be kept apart.

Viva paz!

@tadbithuman Yes! Religion should be kept out of everything! @blueemu @peterbrown

@tadbithuman @blueemu @AlliFlowers so a stateless people?

@peterbrown @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers literally no one understands what you're on about

@blueemu @tadbithuman @AlliFlowers literally everyone can look it up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation

@peterbrown @blueemu @AlliFlowers not according to the U.N., however, the ones that are displaced internationally without passports in the countries where they are hosted are stateless de facto.

@tadbithuman @blueemu @AlliFlowers so what does the UN say they are? A stateless nation?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateless_nation

@tadbithuman Exactly. @blueemu

@not2b But the PA IS Hamas.

@AlliFlowers That is ignorant. The PA is headed up by Hamas's rival for power, Fatah.

@not2b Double check your sources on that.

@AlliFlowers My sources are good, thanks. Perhaps you are thinking of the election where Hamas won and the other side refused to recognize this, followed by a civil war. The outcome of that was that Hamas wound up in control of Gaza and Fatah had control in the West Bank. But only the PA, headed up by Abbas, has international recognition, and they aren't Hamas.

@not2b @AlliFlowers

There is a lot to unpack here, but are you somehow under the impression that Palestine is more religiously diverse than Israel and that's why people call Israel the Jewish state? Or that the Palestinian Authority is secular as opposed to Israel?

I'm genuinely curious if somehow you were actually given this understanding of the religious dynamics in those areas?

@imstilljeremy No. You miss my being a total smartarse because too many people aren’t thinking about that when they make their anti-Israel pro-Palestine comments. They don’t get it. @not2b

@AlliFlowers @not2b

I replied to his post. If you want to insist other people "don't get it", it helps to make sure you understand the post by the person to whom you are replying.

I didn't miss anything. You did.

@imstilljeremy My bad. @not2b

@imstilljeremy @AlliFlowers No, I am not under that impression. I know that most Palestinians, including those with Israeli citizenship (about 20%) are Muslim. I was replying to a comment that called Palestine "the Muslim state".

@not2b It didn’t call it that. It asked why it wasn’t called that.

The implication is that Muslims have many “states” countries where they can be safe and worship as they see fit. @imstilljeremy

@not2b @AlliFlowers

She very specifically contrasted the two. If you answer one in a way that doesn't apply to the other, you haven't responded in any meaningful way except to say you find the person unworthy of even your consideration.

It is usually considered more polite to just not respond in that case.

@imstilljeremy She is me! *I* asked the question. SMH @not2b

@AlliFlowers @not2b

I! Responded! To! Him!

You two deserve each other.

@imstilljeremy FFS, separate the names. See the way I do it? There is no chance of mistake that way. A lot less confusing for the entire fediverse. @not2b

@AlliFlowers @not2b

You could actually read the post you reply to rather than deciding everybody is against you.

You keep screwing up simple reading comprehension and you are try to tell me to model myself after you?

As I said, you two deserve each other.

@pixel Bingo. So why do Palestinians need the land?

@AlliFlowers may I suggest the book “The Shortest History of Israel and Palestine”.

@pixel Thanks, I’m good.

@AlliFlowers What was the point of your original post? I get the feeling maybe it was a leading question? Did you already know the answer you were looking for?

@pixel Just trying to make people think past who’s dropping bombs on whom. Too many people do not recognize their own antisemitism.

@AlliFlowers ah. I don’t think there’s a correct answer here. There’s no “good” or “bad”. Jewish people believe they have a right to the land, and so do the Palestinians. Israel should not have taken more and more land. That drove the creation of Hamas. You back someone into a corner, they’re going to turn violent. But what remains of Palestine isn’t doing everything right either. it’s just a complete mess, and unless both sides are willing to share the land, this is a war that will never end.